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Can't stop snickering.

  • May. 6th, 2008 at 2:21 PM
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Dave Sim is shocked, shocked I tell you, that anyone might ever so slander him by describing his as a misogynist. ('cause it's not like his own words might give anyone such an impression.) So he's sent out a form letter saying that he'll only talk to people who will sign an online petition or send him an letter affirming that it's not so.

At this point he doesn't even fall under offensive, just a source of some really funny schadenfreude.

  • Mood: amused
  • Music:New Order - Blue Monday

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[info]wyvernfree wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 07:12 pm (UTC)
My husband used to seriously try to argue that the "Cerebus" comics were not actually completely misogynistic. I don't even remember if he thought they were supposed to be ironic or what. They're not bad enough that I won't have them in the house or anything, but you have to have your fingers in your ears and be singing "La, la, la" pretty loud not to see it!
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[info]sarudy wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 07:19 pm (UTC)
I've only skimmed, but apparently the first part of them aren't horrible at all, up to a storyline called "Jaka's Story". After that, apparently, sanity left the building.

So if he was reading the earlier parts, your husband may have had a point.
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[info]wyvernfree wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 07:29 pm (UTC)
No, I'm sure I recall the earlier ones having nasty (and worse, comic-relief) subplots involving rape and subjugation of women.

I thought the "Jaka" book was completely stupid, but I guess it was also the one you could make the most coherent "But the author doesn't really SUPPORT this attitude" argument, since the silly theocracy that oppressed the female character were obviously supposed to be villains. I'd probably have cut it more slack if it seemed to have any actual POINT going on...
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[info]wyvernfree wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
...but anyway, I thought the funniest part about his letter was him going "Dammit! My so-called fans never publicly defend me when I get called a misogynist! They must not really like me!"

Um dude, they're FANS! They probably hear "Dave Sim's a misogynist" and think "Like I care," same as they do when they hear a rumor that their favorite sports star is an unfaithful spouse or their favorite musician is a mean drunk. They just think your comics are cool and they don't care if you personally are a sexist or not. If it bugs you that much, find some other celebrities with uncritical fanboys and start a support group already. *ROFL*
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[info]forexample wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 08:23 pm (UTC)
I have to double check this... Sometime around the writing of Jaka's Story he had a relationship end traumatically, which would account for the change in tone.

I got so fed up with his misogyny that I threw volume 9 across the room. I continued reading a year later only because I had already decided to read the entire series.
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[info]wyvernfree wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 09:29 pm (UTC)
Eep. Glancing at his Wikipedia bio, it seems that "Jaka's Story" was also in the same time period as A) his having to be hospitalized for extreme LSD abuse and B) his diagnosis as a borderline schizophrenic.

So I, uh, guess that might've had something to do with the deteriorating quality of his work around then too. :-o His silly insistence that fans sign a loyalty pledge to him before he will speak to them suddenly isn't quite as funny anymore now that I know he has a mental disorder that typically results in paranoid obsessions. :/

His comics are still totally misogynist though.
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(Anonymous) wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 11:18 pm (UTC)
Actually, Dave's bad LSD experience and hospital admittance were at the time of issue 11 & 12 time frame, Jaka's Story starts at issue #114. After his hospital stay, Dave then decided (in a round about way) to do the story for 300 monthly issues. And his wife and him divorce at approximately issue 65 or so, having separated about a year earlier then that. An earlier issue did have a rape in it, but subjugation of women? Not so much. Several of the strongest characters, Astoria, Cirin and Jaka are all female. Even Red Sophia in issue #3 was a strong woman who took care of herself. The ending of Church & State (not to spoil it for you) was pretty much a anti-male diatribe about the creation of the universe.

Take care,
Margaret
www.cerebusfangirl.com
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[info]wyvernfree wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 11:58 pm (UTC)
Um, there's really no way of stretching the definition of "strong" such that Jaka qualifies. Or conversely, if she does, then so does every single protagonist ever written by anyone, making the term meaningless. "Is treated as a worthwhile main character" != "is strong." Jaka was fundamentally and inherently UNable to take care of herself, ESPECIALLY in the series in which she is the main character.

Not that that's necessarily a bad thing-- many people, both male and female, are not able to take care of themselves, and I love many fictional characters who are essentially weak in some way-- but the idea that we're meant to consider her an example of female strength is pretty insulting.

I don't remember Astoria as anything other than a stereotypical manipulative bitch who gets her come-uppance by being raped in a stupidly cutesy way, but she was at least in an actual position of power, and I remember her other plotlines less well than Jaka's, so there could well have been more to her than I'm remembering.

But Jaka? Come ON.
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(Anonymous) wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 01:57 am (UTC)
So you don't think Jaka is a strong character? (minor spoilers for those that care) She left home when she was 12 and made her way on her own, she works a job to support her husband, stood up to Cerebus when he tried to get her to leave what she was doing and come live with him or take his hand outs. So perhaps a better word then strong is independent? Sure, she didn't acknowledge knowing what Pud was all about, and about to do to her, but that doesn't make her weak or unable to take care of herself.

And to me, Astoria is the one character along with Po that actually learned anything in life / the series which we see when they all might in the throne room. Not even the title character did that.

take care,
margaret
www.cereb.us/wiki
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[info]wyvernfree wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 03:29 am (UTC)
Uh, well actually, no. Where I come from, having a job and being able to turn down an unwanted romantic advance is just "normal," not "strong" or "independent." Everyone I know in real life, of either gender, has that level of basic competence.

Now Jaka has some other good qualities; she's artistic, she's kind, she's loyal, she's something of a free spirit (not adhering to her society's sexual/artistic norms.)

But it's mighty depressing to think that successfully holding down a job as an exotic dancer is being held up as some kind of proof of a *strong* heroine. I'm starting to think I'd really better go get rid of these books before my graphic-novel-loving son finds them down there. I've got a pretty good tolerance for the male-centered nature of the comics world in general, but the more I think about it, the more I think this particular series is beyond my comfort level as anything I want to endorse with my ownership.

I'm glad you get a lot out of it, though. I'm sure I find a lot of literature meaningful that would just rub you the wrong way, too.
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[info]the_malum wrote:
May. 8th, 2008 01:13 am (UTC)
I will agree that such shouldn't be considered necessarily "strong," but I'd think having a job and being able to turn down an unwanted romantic advance is most certainly many adolescents' definition of "independent"...

I thought Jaka was okay as a female character. Certainly not particularly memorable in the same way as, say, Wilhelmina Murray in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or Agatha Heterodyne in the Girl Genius series, but not bad.
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[info]fings wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 03:35 am (UTC)
High Society and Church & State I+II are worthwhile. I own them and like them. After that, things start going downhill, then a bit after that, they nose dive.
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[info]the_malum wrote:
May. 7th, 2008 06:26 pm (UTC)
then a bit after that, they nose dive.

In fact, the phrase "meteoritic fall" comes to mind.

Amusingly, the Cerebus Syndrome (more or less another name for Creator Breakdown) is an indication that many people think Sim's stuff was the iconic example of such a drop in quality.

Edited at 2008-05-07 06:28 pm (UTC)
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[info]conanmagruder wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 07:20 pm (UTC)
He now believes in celibacy. He will thus, like the Shakers, extinguish himself.
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[info]ellindsey wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 08:05 pm (UTC)
The good thing here is that he's sworn off women completely. For this, I'm sure the entire female gender is collectively grateful. And this petition might help him cut himself off from the other half of the human race as well. If this keeps up, he'll refuse to have any contact with anyone else. Win for the rest of us.
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[info]raisinbottom wrote:
May. 6th, 2008 09:37 pm (UTC)
lulz, he's been batshit insane since the seventies. cerebus was conceived after a bad lsd trip which required being locked up in an asylum
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